David Orentlicher's "Big Haul" By the Numbers

Wow (0.00 / 0)

I've been waiting for over a week for your promised "substantive" response to why I should vote for Andre Carson.  You never followed through.  Instead, you're here trashing David Orentlicher.  That tells me just how afraid of him the Carson people are.

Hoosier Progressive

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by: Vox Populi @ Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 14:10:56 PM CST

Apologies (0.00 / 0)

Hi Vox,

I've actually been really sick for the past week and a half and haven't been doing much work.

I'm writing the longer response to your argument as we speak.  It will be in two parts.  The first part assesses the various Democratic candidates and features a lengthy appeal for Andre.  The second part offers a rebuttal to your advocacy for tactical voting.

Again, I apologize for the wait, but the virus I have kind of killed my productivity.

best,

Tyrion

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by: Tyrion @ Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 14:25:15 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I wouldn't call this trashing... (0.00 / 0)

...even if I don't agree with all of it.

Anyone who was familiar with David's first House campaign can vouch for the fact that his campaigning skills were definitely lacking. The man is brilliant, but there is no denying that working a room was not his strength.

Of course, I would argue that he has shown himself to be extremely receptive to his constituency on a legislative level -- just check out the bills he puts forth every year -- and this summer showed that his room-working skills have improved considerably. He's not Bill Clinton, to be sure, but he was fearless and resolute in front of the angry property tax crowds at his self-organized meetings.

Just some thoughts.

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by: Thomas @ Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 14:25:27 PM CST

[ Parent ]

When I very mildly criticize David it's "Trashing"... (4.00 / 1)

...but when Vox Populi calls Andre's supporters a "mafia" that's what?  Civil?  Even-handed?  "Fair and balanced"?  

While I agree that David O has been fairly proactive on the property tax issue, I think it's worth mentioning that issue is probably one of the biggest to surface in well-over a decade and was centered in his district, so I don't think he deserves too much credit for taking notice.  I also think we may want to reserve judgment on that until we see if David can actually use his social skills to build consensus in the legislature for his proposal.  Ideas die untimely deaths all the time in the American political system, not for want of brilliance, but for want of advocacy.

As his constituent, I would say it's not just his "room-working" skills.  It's very much his ability to listen to what people are trying to tell him.  I think being a good listener is an incredibly important characteristic for an effective and responsible politician.

-Tyrion

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by: Tyrion @ Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 15:20:52 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I will say this: (0.00 / 0)

If I were a Carson supporter, I'm not sure I would attack Orentlicher on the fact that he was unable to push his tax plan over the Governors. (No one would have had that power.)

After all, raising any issue of David O's experiences in the legislature is undoubtedly going to raise the issue of Andre's relative inexperience in any legislative body.

It will be an interesting match-up, to say the least.

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by: Thomas @ Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 15:40:07 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Fair enough, but... (0.00 / 0)

...I'm simply suggesting that it isn't positive proof that David is an effective legislator.  Just sayin'.  I'll have more on this in a little bit, but now I need to go roast some garlic.

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by: Tyrion @ Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 15:47:29 PM CST

[ Parent ]

A fine reason! (4.00 / 1)

I am about to leave for a party which will feature six kinds of chip dip. You heard me: Six.

And at least as many varieties of beverages.

Enjoy yourself.

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by: Thomas @ Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 15:51:58 PM CST

[ Parent ]

His campaign skills are lacking? (4.00 / 1)

Funny, he seems to keep getting reelected with higher margins every time.  He raised more money in less than a month than almost every other non-incumbent raised the entire quarter.  Gosh, I hope all of our candidates suffer the same lack of campaign skills.

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by: dhonig @ Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 17:16:27 PM CST

[ Parent ]

You are correct! (0.00 / 0)

David's ability to raise funds in the 5th District are unparalleled!  Go team!

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by: Tyrion @ Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 17:25:40 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Money is fungible n/t (4.00 / 1)

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by: dhonig @ Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 17:52:02 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Missed the point, thy name is DHonig! (0.00 / 0)

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by: Tyrion @ Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 22:04:01 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Shame on you for innuendo and hypocrisy (4.00 / 1)

First, Julia announced she would not run again, and from that date forward fundraising was perfectly appropriate.  You are trying to have it both ways, raising the innuendo that he did something wrong while saying you don't think it "reflects any intentional disrespect."  Horse-hockey.  You are taking a non-event and trying to MAKE IT LOOK like he did something wrong.  

As for taking money on the day of the funeral, well, hypocrisy, thy name is Tyrion.  Yes, David took checks. Andre, in the meantime, turned his grandmother's funeral into his campaign kick-off, cheers and all.  Julia never said a single word in public about Andre succeeding her.  But once she was dead, she was apparently endorsing him from the grave.  And that was met, not with disbelief for the words, or disgust for the venue, but with cheers more suitable for a basketball game than a funeral.  

David took checks.

Andre planted his campaign on the fresh dug earth of his grandmother's funeral.  

Tell me, which showed "disrespect," intentional or otherwise?

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by: dhonig @ Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 17:13:59 PM CST

Strawmen and Histrionics, thy name is Dave Honig (0.00 / 0)

1) I didn't and haven't said anything about David raising money before Julia died.  I don't have a problem with it.

2) You can pretend that it doesn't look bad to raise money during the funeral of the person you are hoping to succeed, but any politician with an ounce of social intelligence would have simply asked the contributors to wait a week (Or a month for god's sake, since he hasn't spent any of it, in any case).  That's a cold, hard, empirical reality.  Try to spin it anyway you like.

3) Since you posted something similar over at my main blog I'll paste my response from there:

Very few of the speakers at Julia's funeral encouraged people to vote for Andre. None did so at the request of Andre and, from what I hear, he was personally somewhat embarrassed by those who did. From that alone your claim that "Andre turned her funeral into a campaign stop" is baseless and pretty offensive.

You are entitled to your opinion , but if you had some, you know, facts to ground what you are writing, it would be eminently more persuasive. (Examples of facts can be conveniently located in the post you are commenting upon).

If you were actually at the funeral, Dave, you probably would have noticed that the overwhelming majority of speakers were celebrating Julia's life and legacy. That's also, incidentally, exactly what Andre's remarks were: a remembrance of his grandmother, a person he deeply cherished and respected. He said absolutely zilch about his own candidacy, nor did any speaker associated with his campaign.

But it's good to know you found Julia's funeral "tacky".

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by: Tyrion @ Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 17:23:20 PM CST

[ Parent ]

You don't have a problem with it? (4.00 / 1)

then why raise it?  Accepting checks on the day of her passing comes from raising money before her passing, and getting it in on that day.  The campaign is required to report the money.  In other words, you are attempting to make something from nothing.

Accepting money on the day of her funeral?  See above.  Once the fund raising begins, you report it as it comes in.  If, as you said above, you have no problem with David starting his fund raising when Julia said she would not run for reelection, then your attempt to slime him for the dates checks arrived in the mail are shameful, and I stand by my prior statements.

At least three speakers mentioned Andre's campaign (please note I am not naming them, because I am not attempting to slime Andre by association), including two who purported to speak for Julia after her death.  That was tacky, plain and simple.  I did not find Julia's funeral tacky, nor did I find her career of public service tacky.  But I did find any attempt to turn her death into a launching pad for Andre's campaign, BY ANYBODY, profoundly tacky.

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by: dhonig @ Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 18:00:36 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Overreaction and Incoherence, thy name is DHonig! (4.00 / 1)

1.) My apologies for the familiarity.  If it makes you feel better, you can call me Ty.

I assumed since your handle was basically your name you don't care that you aren't anonymous.  It doesn't help that I've read your posts all over the net as "David Honig" (and I thought "Dave Honig" but I appear to be in error).  I wasn't aware that this was some sort of breach of etiquette.  From here on out, you're DHonig to me.

2.)  Again, I never stated I had a problem with raising money before Julia's passing.  My only claim is that it looks bad to raise money on the day of Julia's passing and on the day of her funeral.  It has the appearance of being disrespectful.  That is simply a political reality which you cannot dispute.

Apparently, I'm not allowed to point this out or the corresponding lack of social intelligence it implies, because I like Andre Carson more than David Orentlicher (despite the fact that I've written plenty of other stuff praising David).  In other words, by even pointing out the obvious fact that David had done something politically stupid, I'm doing something shameful and hypocritical.

That's absurd.  You need to calm down and go play some horse-hockey or something.

3.) If you want to make the claim that, "I did find any attempt to turn her death into a launching pad for Andre's campaign, BY ANYBODY, profoundly tacky," you should probably avoid saying the following things first:

"Andre turned her funeral into a campaign stop." (DHonig, Comments, http://indytyrion.blogspot.com...

and

"Andre planted his campaign on the fresh dug earth of his grandmother's funeral."

(DHonig, Above)

Not trying to slime Andre?  Really?  It's not disgusting, vile trash to say that "Andre planted his campaign on the fresh dug earth of his grandmother's funeral"?  Not where I come from.  Not when you have zero evidence to support that claim.  Not when your next post tries to back down and pretend that you just meant that "other people" were doing tacky things at Julia's funeral, not Andre.  "Horse-hockey"!  That's garbage.  First you say Andre launched his campaign from the funeral, now you try to weasel your way out of a claim you can't support.

If this is how you think it's best to support David's campaign, I suggest you check with the folks at campaign headquarters.  They may have a different opinion.

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by: Tyrion @ Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 21:56:01 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I think everyone knows... (4.00 / 1)

that Julia's funeral was an Andre for Congress rally.  Farrakhan, Jacobs and two sitting members of Congress all encouraged us to vote for Andre in the immediate aftermath of Julia's passing.

The Center Township Machine kept Julia's condition secret for months, presumably to make sure nobody challenged her "seed" for the seat.

You fault Orentlicher for accepting checks that were written on the day of Julia's death and her funeral, while Wilson insinuates that David's fundraising was unethical if not illegal.  But none of the Carson fanboys fault Andre for what happened at that funeral.

Hoosier Progressive

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by: Vox Populi @ Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 22:05:26 PM CST

[ Parent ]

U. S. Representative Carolyn Kilpatrick (4.00 / 1)

is a progressive-voting Member of Congress and also the Chair of the Congressional Black Caucus. She is no political neophyte or dummy but a skillful leader in progressive American politics. She was the principal speaker advocating André Carson's election at Ms. Carson's funeral. She is not ignorant of funeral protocol nor of political realities. She did it unbidden -- I was astonished when it happened.

Perhaps the naysayers should be asking themselves why this distinguished lady chose this event to say what she did.  

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by: Wilson46201 @ Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 22:34:53 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Get some new talking points, Vox... (4.00 / 1)

1.) Not everyone knows "Julia's funeral was an Andre for Congress rally" and repeating it ad nauseum without real evidence won't make it so.  I know plenty of people who were actually at the funeral who didn't see it that way--some of whom support David.  Andre didn't solicit any of those endorsements and was embarrassed by the three people who brought it up.  What exactly am I supposed to fault him for?

2.) I don't have anything to do with what Wilson posts.   I didn't insinuate that there was anything unethical about raising money during Julia's funeral, nor did I "fault" him for it.  I correctly stated that it was politically stupid and suggested a lack of social intelligence, which I did think was relevant.  Why don't you trying to respond to what I wrote, rather than trying to misinterpret what I wrote with bad faith?  I'm trying to make an honest assessment of the candidate's strengths and weaknesses and you and DHonig are behaving like reactionaries.

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by: Tyrion @ Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 22:46:45 PM CST

[ Parent ]

You keep insinuating FAR BEYOND reality (4.00 / 2)

now you say David O was "raising money during Julia's funeral," as if he were passing the hat back and forth over her body.  Why do we sound like reactionaries?  Because you take a grain of sand, say "look at that magnificent beach," and expect us to stand back and applaud.

You already said it was perfectly appropriate to start fund raising once Julia announced she would not run again.  You know that once fund raising begins, you get money as it comes in the mail.  That means money can come in at any time in the mail.  What you are really saying, then, is either that David should not have gone to the mailbox on the day of Julia's funeral, or that he should have lied on his campaign finance reports.  The latter is obviously unacceptable.  That leaves the former. Ergo, you are really saying David demonstrated "political stupidity" and "a lack of social intelligence" for the sin of going to his mailbox the day of Julia's funeral.  

I'm sorry, but boycotting the mail, unless perhaps you are mourning the loss of your mailman, is not a form of respect for the dead with which I am familiar.

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by: dhonig @ Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 05:27:12 AM CST

[ Parent ]

I'm inclined to stay out of this at the moment... (4.00 / 1)

...but I'm also inclined to agree with dhonig on this one.

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by: Thomas @ Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 05:32:18 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Awww... (0.00 / 0)

...well at least we still agree on Vampire Weekend.  

Unlike Horse-hockey the Histrionic, I don't have to agree with someone to respect their opinion.

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by: Tyrion @ Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 09:23:37 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Trying Responding to What I Actually Wrote (4.00 / 1)

Actually, DHonig, I haven't asked you to applaud anything, nor did I expect it, since, one way or another, I thought this was a pretty damn innocuous post.  To my surprise you burst on to this thread by shrilling calling me a shameless hypocrite.  You expect politeness and respect when clearly you offer none. You are a classic bully but I won't be bullied.  I know it pains you to have to read actual facts, but here are two facts to consider: (1) David accepted 22 checks on the day of Julia's funeral; (2) It can give the appearance of being disrespectful to accept checks on the day the person you are attempting to succeed is being buried.  

I think it's interesting that you haven't ever contested either of those facts.  The only conclusion I've drawn from those facts is the most charitable possible to David: that he was being socially obtuse.  This reinforced my prior opinion that he has dreadful social intelligence and I said as much.  I didn't say he was being malicious or disrespectful or classless.  Those are all words you've put in my mouth.  I simply tried to analyze the political acuity of his actions and I concluded what any objective observer would tell you: politically stupid.  Sorry, but that's what it is.  It's as simple as not opening letters addressed to your campaign on that day.  But, more importantly, it's about having the knowledge of other people to realize you shouldn't open those letters because some of your potential constituents, people you'd like to persuade, will interpret it unfavorably.  That's pretty neutral, obvious political commentary.

Instead of responding to that, you go off on a long-winded self-righteous tirade of name-calling that proceeds to confuse what I've written with what Wilson has written elsewhere.  It would be great if, just for starters, you didn't automatically assume all of Andre's supporters are interchangeable cogs.  I know that's difficult for people used to referring to his supporters as "The Machine", "The Ghetto Mafia", and "Those People," but we'd appreciate it.

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by: Tyrion @ Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 08:47:33 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Excuse me? (0.00 / 0)

I'm not DHonig, but who has referred to Carson's supporters as the "Ghetto Mafia" or "Those People" on this website?

And if you think it's rude for David to accept checks on the day of Julia's death and funeral, you must think it's a total abomination for three speakers at her funeral to urge 7th District voters to send her "seed" to Congress.

The most shameful thing was that he turned his grandma's funeral into an Andre for Congress rally.  And you're crying over a few checks.

Hoosier Progressive

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by: Vox Populi @ Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 09:29:15 AM CST

[ Parent ]

WTF?! (4.00 / 1)

First, I made no such statements.  Second, you continuously ignore the very simple fact that opening the mail is not an act of disrespect.  If you want to be honest, you will admit that. Instead, you keep trying to turn it into a faux pas David O, and that is simply absurd.  And it is not merely "your opinion," since you keep trying to put the meme out there hoping it will stick to David.  

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by: dhonig @ Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 10:17:22 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Don't be ridiculous (0.00 / 0)

Campaigns are not required to disclose contributions immediately upon receipt.  Whether you think he needed to or not, he could have waited a day or two after checking the mail.  Give me a break.

ELLSWORTH FOR SENATE 2010

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by: Mario Cuomo @ Tue Feb 05, 2008 at 11:22:59 AM CST

[ Parent ]

I weasel from nothing (4.00 / 1)

go back and read what I wrote again, because none of it is inconsistent, and I stand by it all.

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by: dhonig @ Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 22:08:54 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Do we know each other? (4.00 / 1)

is there some reason you feel free not only to use my full name on a blog, but also to use a familiar nickname?  That's one hell of a thing from somebody who chooses to blog anonymously.  Stop it.  

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by: dhonig @ Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 18:04:36 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Anonymity (0.00 / 0)

I found your name and much other info on the InterNetz in less than 5 minutes ... you aren't anonymous!

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by: Wilson46201 @ Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 18:21:36 PM CST

[ Parent ]

And yours is accessable as well (4.00 / 1)

but I did not go past your blog name.  That is, quite simply, how it is done.  You did not breach that (unless you are Tyrion and just screwed up your sockpuppet), so I do not know why you are defending the, at minimum grossly impolite, actions of another.

Also, I can't think of two people on the entire planet who have ever referred to me more than once as "Dave."  The pretension that "Tyrion" actually knows me is ridiculous.

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by: dhonig @ Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 18:27:57 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Also (0.00 / 0)

Horse-hockey?

Dude, get a new bag of tricks...

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by: Tyrion @ Sun Feb 03, 2008 at 17:24:30 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Oentlicher's "fanboys" (0.00 / 0)

The hauteur and arrogance from Orentlicher's "fanboys" here do not bode well at all for their candidate's campaign. Contrasted to André Carson's grassroots and respectful approach to the voters, a "know-it-all" aggressive style of politics will lead to certain defeat at the polls in the real world...

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by: Wilson46201 @ Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 10:03:26 AM CST

You're kidding me, right? (0.00 / 0)

You, the biggest "know-it-all" I have ever encountered on the Internets, chastising others?  Whose funeral is Andre going to party at next?

Hoosier Progressive

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by: Vox Populi @ Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 10:13:33 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Arrogance? (4.00 / 1)

I prefer it to dishonesty.

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by: dhonig @ Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 10:17:53 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Q.E.D. (4.00 / 1)

Whose funeral is Andre going to party at next?

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by: Wilson46201 @ Mon Feb 04, 2008 at 10:30:12 AM CST

[ Parent ]